Building Integrity in Your Voice Over Business & Life with Bill DeWees

Bill DeWees:
I think we are born with a moral compass. Some of us, you know, concede or hear it louder than others, and some may have to dig a little bit harder for it. But I think deep inside we intuitively understand that other people are important, that they're created just like we are.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Hi there and welcome to Vox Talk. I'm Stephanie Ciccarelli, and you just heard Bill DeWees. In today's episode, we're gonna hear some interesting thoughts about integrity and what it means to have it. If you are trying to build it, what does it take? I really hope you enjoy this conversation with Bill DeWees on how to have integrity as a voice over talent. Bill, here we are again, Bill DeWees. We are in another vo minefield. I don't know how we keep doing this, but there's no one that I is

Bill DeWees:
Is the studio warm, or is it just me? It's feeling really warm in here today.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
It's, it's absolutely, you know, but I was just saying, and, and I know everyone is already anticipating what this conversation's about 'cause we have a new format for the show and how, um, the intro was probably knows there's a little bit different here. Um, but, but Bill, you know, today we're talking about integrity and what it means to have it, um, you know, if you don't have it, how to build it and, and how to, to become a better person, a business person in, in doing all this stuff. So, uh, yes, Bill, you know, we, we go into mine fields all the time, be it VO rates or, or in this case, it's integrity

Bill DeWees:
Right?

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Um, you know, there are a few people in this industry who go into minefields better than you do, Bill. So I'm, I'm happy to be in here with.

Bill DeWees:
Thank you.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
So, um, today, as we all know, we're gonna be talking about integrity. And I know, bill, that you, you were very good with your business. You're very entrepreneurial. You have a way of explaining things that, that, uh, are just so helpful. So I'm hoping that you can help to define for us today what integrity is and, and why it matters. What's your take on it?

Bill DeWees:
Stephanie, I've been giving this a lot of thought since you first asked me to join you, uh, to have this, this conversation. And, um, this could go so many different ways. But for me, I've been thinking what is, what is central to all of this? What is the most important, and when it comes to, I mean, integrity, ultimately, I think is, is acting in a way that we believe, but is there, but beyond that, is there something that, that we all can agree on in terms of a belief that is kind of core and foundational? Because we have never lived in such a fractured society in terms of philosophically that our point, our worldview, the way we see things, and social media is only exacerbated that whole thing. And, you know, everybody's asking what everybody's said. We're always, we're, we make so many judgements and always asking other people's opinions. What do you, what do you think about him? What do you think about her? What do you think about this? And so it's such a, it's an explosive time in history when it comes to this kind of thing. But for me, and as I thought about this, I hope that the one thing that we can agree on, I go back to the Golden Rule, and I don't care what your political persuasion or your religious persuasion or where you come from, I hope the one thing that most of us can agree on is that we need to treat each other as we would want to be treated with, with love and respect, regardless of how we feel about that person. How we, you know, if we judge, hopefully we don't judge. But if we do that aside, hopefully our behavior is that we treat that person with respect. So for me, that's where, where it all starts. It's very, you know, there's, there's no religious overtones, there's no political overtones. There's, I'm just looking at, as a human being, you are a human being, therefore, you are worthy of my respect and of of my love, and I need to treat you at least as well as I would treat myself. And so that's, for me, that's, that's where it all begins. And if I can align my actions with that, and that's where the rub comes in.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yes.

Bill DeWees:
Um, so I, I don't know if that's a, a good place to start, but that's, that's where I start.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Absolutely. I think it's so important that we remember that we are all part of the same human race. There is, you know, we are humans. That is what this is. And,

Bill DeWees:
You know, we come from the same place we're going. I mean, we, you know, we come from the dirt, we go back to the dirt and, you know, before and after, we can have arguments as to all of that. But we, we are, I mean, we're like it or not, we're family. We may not like each other, but we're family just like any other family, I guess.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
No, that's right. So thank you for defining that in such a loving and, and clear way so that people can embrace this idea of “Yeah, I I wanna treat people, um, you know, in such a manner that I would wanna be treated in,” because I think that really is, uh, for a lot of people they can get that they understand that I, I wanna be respected, I wanna be treated like I have dignity, and that what I'm doing matters. So, um, you know, integrity, as you were saying is, is just kind of like living out your life truthfully and honestly, truthfully and honestly. Um, and I think that everyone has kind of, you know, hopefully you have some places where you, you take stands, you draw lines, you, you, because how, how else would you define what it means to have integrity for yourself, right? Like, we all need to have that. So, um, you know, how do you know if you have integrity or not? Because we're talking about how important it is and, and living your life out. But what are some signs, Bill that, that you have integrity as well as maybe some, uh, kind of signs as well, uh, that you, that you're maybe lacking in this area or that you could do better?

Bill DeWees:
And I think if you're not sure if you're, if you, if right now you're scratching your head and saying, ‘well, do I have it?’ Well, then maybe you haven't spent enough time thinking about it, because I think there needs to be an awareness. Uh, and frankly, there are some people who just, you know, sociopathic type folks who just don't think about these things. It's not, I'm going to assume that you are not, I don't mean you, Stephanie personally, I don't mean anybody who, who's listening to this. I'm gonna assume you're not one of those people. Um, but if you haven't taken time to think about it, I think, I think it would be, it would be in your best interest to begin to kind of think through your actions and, and think about how people have responded to you and have they said things or indicated things that, that may, that maybe will make you think twice am am I delivering on the promise of what I believe to be true and right. Am I treating people right? And I think if you're not, I think people will avoid you. They won't wanna be associated with you. They won't wanna be your friend. I think if you have very few friends and people avoid you, then that's, that's a, a telltale sign that something might be wrong in the integrity department.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah.

Bill DeWees:
Just, just something to think about.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah. You're being avoided like the plague.

Bill DeWees:
Yeah

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
It's like, oh, no.

Bill DeWees:
What’s wrong? Well, it, it could be either you're not using deodorant number one or number two . You just don't have integrity. One of those two things.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Oh my goodness. Yes. And, and, uh, just thinking about, um, the whole idea of, of, uh, you know, having integrity can be just living out your life in a way that, that you feel, um, your, you have, your values are in line. Uh, you're not doing anything that would compromise how you, what you believe. Uh, but a lot of people bill, and as you say, I think it's, it's more about, it's not that they don't have integrity or they're lacking necessarily, it's that they haven't given it much thought. Right?

Bill DeWees:
Yeah.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
And especially young people, you know, like they, they don't know. Um, they may have heard the word they, they might know that it means to be maybe ‘a good person’ or whatever they might describe it as, but these, this integrity that we speak of, like, it does come from a place like it, it comes from, you know, a set of beliefs that you have, that you've developed over time. And we all have a foundation for where that comes from and, and from out of a foundation, you know, is the outpouring of a worldview, how we see the world and all the people in it, in our place. And, and all of the, the big questions in life are answered by that foundational aspect of, of where we have, have you know, learned about, uh, what we believe to be the truth. And I believe there is only, like, truth is, is obviously truth is truth is truth. It's absolute

Bill DeWees:
mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
So, I don't know, it's kind of like we all are in pursuit of truth. I think that, that, that is important when you build a foundation, be in pursuit of the truth. Second is your worldview comes out of that. So anything that you're believing or the frameworks you've set up for yourself, that all, it all filters through and it, and it determines things, decisions you make in your life. And then, and then there's the living it out part. And so,

Bill DeWees:
Yeah.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
And that's where I think the integrity, where you say where the rubber hits the road, it's when those beliefs and, and that kind of, um, the ideas that you hold dear, your values, if those are clashing with, you know, how you actually behave in the real world, then, um, you're not doing what Shakespeare had said in Hamlet

Bill DeWees:
Yes.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Through Polonius ‘to thine own self be true’ as he spoke to his son Laertes. So, you know, if you don't wanna be false to yourself, you don't wanna be false to anybody else. And, um, you know, if you find you're being false or you feel that this isn't right, or I, why did I say that? Or, uh, oh, I was just doing that because, um, I didn't wanna create trouble. I didn't wanna stir something up. I didn't wanna rock the boat. Yeah. If there's a lot of that going on, then you're probably compromising in some way.

Bill DeWees:
Yeah. It could very well be. And you know, this thing of, of truth that you brought up is so interesting. And you're right. I mean, truth is truth. But it's so interesting the older that I get, and it just keeps happening, Stephanie, I don't know why, but every, you know, it just, every day I wake up and I'm a little greyer and I just re time goes by. But as it does, the one thing that I've, that I've realized is I don't know as much as I thought that I used to know, it's, there's a humility. Uh, I hope it's a humility that that seems to be coming in, that I realize that, you know, I used to think it, you know, 30 years ago I thought I had it all figured out. You know, I thought I knew what was what, and now, you know, I'm, I'm, I'll be 64 here in just a couple of months and I'll, I'll tell you, I don't know much. I realize I just don't know nearly as much as I thought I used to know. And it's, uh, back to the idea of truth that I think we need to really approach the whole idea of truth with humility, because I think this is where we can get into some trouble. And I don't mean to take us down a, a whole rabbit trail on this, but there, there are people, we can line up 10 different people and they will swear that they understand the truth of life and what it is. And, and, but yet each have a different lens through which they look at it. So, which is why I go back to this core idea, I think regardless of where you come from, who you are and what you believe truth to be outside of this, I think the one thing we can all agree on, and hopefully we're kind of, we're born with, I think we are born with a moral compass. Some of us, you know, can see or hear it louder than others. And some may have to dig a little bit harder for it. But I think deep inside we intuitively understand that other people are important, you know, that they're created just like we are and that they, you know, they need to be treated as such. And outside of that, you know, we can debate. We can debate, but I, but I think if we can't, if we can't all agree on that, then it's hard to even have a conversation about it because we have, we don't have a point of reference,

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm-hmm.

Bill DeWees:
uh, because the, I've got a feeling the things we're gonna be talking about today will get off into these other things where people will, they're willing to die on that hill to say, well, this is truth. You know, this is my, my political persuasion

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
mm-hmm.

Bill DeWees:
that's what's true. And if we don't do it this way, then the, you know, bad things will happen and we could, you know, then we go off into this whole other, this whole other thing. But I think if we can get back to this, this really foundational idea that it's about loving and respecting other people and operating in the best interest of others as well as ourselves, then I think we can have a, a pretty good conversation. Otherwise, we just get off into the weeds and then we start throwing rocks at each other, and then we get into our little camps and then, you know, well, you know, I'm kind of going down that rabbit trail, but I think you get the idea.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah. No, I totally get it. I think that it's important that we are having this conversation from a place that honors everyone and it, it allows for a conversation. For sure. Alright, Bill, so obviously, you know, integrity's something that we all wanna have. It's something that, that everyone strives to, ‘cause you don't wanna feel that you are being other than who you are in all circumstances. I think that everyone can say that to be true. It feels awful when you, you aren't who you are all the time. Uh, so, um, you know, while the goal is to maintain integrity, um, there are times, you know, where we all fall short, we miss the mark blind spots, whatever you might wanna say, um, where we might not, you know, hit the mark and, um, feel awful afterwards, more than likely. Uh, but is it possible to recover from those situations? And, and if so, um, how do we do that?

Bill DeWees:
Yeah, I, I think so. And, and sometimes I think we, sometimes I think we miss the mark intentionally. We just make a decision and say, you know what? I'm gonna do this because it's my best interest and I want this, and so I'm gonna make this, this decision. Sometimes I think we do things and we don't realize at the time, um, sins of what's it, sins of omission as opposed to commission where, you know, and we don't mean to be hurtful, but, but we are. But hopefully as those things begin to come to mind and, and we become aware of those things and you know, we've all, I mean, we've all fallen short. There's, there's nobody who hasn't it, we all do. And whether we're talking personal relationships, business relationships, and I, I guess I'm thinking and speaking more generally here, even outside of voice over, um, but it also includes voice over. I think it's important to go back and just admit and apologize. You know, uh, we as best we can, we can't control what other people do, but we can control what we do. And I think, uh, when we are in error or we've done something that's hurtful or, or we've treated somebody in such a way that, that we shouldn't have, or we're untruthful or whatever, we should go back and we should just admit it and say, ‘you know what? I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have said that, and I'm sorry that I did.’ And that's really all you can do with the intent to not, to not do that again. I know maybe that sounds over simplistic, but I mean, I've experienced, you know, my own personal life, you know, there been times where I've had to go back and just say, ‘you know what? I, that was really stupid. I just shouldn't have, shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry I did that.’ There are clients I've had to go back to where, um, you know, one of the things I really, I take pride in and I try to really do is to, is to deliver. I think part of integrity as a voice over talent is what you say you'll do. You need to do that thing. And generally speaking, I think I'm pretty good at it, but there have been times when I've just blown it and I haven't. And I've had to go back and say, ‘you know what? I, I blew this. I am so sorry, and I will do my best to make this good with you.’ Understanding they may never hire me again. And if so, they have every right. You know, but, but I have to, integrity for me means I have to go back and do what's right by them and, and, uh, apologize and just do the best that I can. And there's not a whole lot I can do outside of that.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
No, there isn't. And I, I think you, you really hit the nail in the head. Um, we need to own our mistakes. We need to be able to have the humility. Uh, I know it's a word that we used a bit, um, earlier in our conversations. Um, but you need to, to realize, you know, I I, I didn't do the right thing perhaps in this situation, and I need to make it right. I need to find some way to restore this relationship or to move on to something. And just reminds me of a quote. Um, there's a, a woman named Elizabeth Elliot and, uh, she said something along the lines of, ‘do the next right thing.’

Bill DeWees:
Mm. That's good.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
You know, if you find that you've fallen down or you're like, oh man, I did this. And it's like, okay, just pick yourself up, realize what you've done as you've said, Bill, you know, make it right and then do the next right thing. And, and just keep doing that. It's just, you know, fall down seven times, get up eight or whatever, you know, like you gotta keep on

Bill DeWees:
Right. Yes.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
keep on doing the things that, um, you know, are, are good for, for you for others, but, uh, to not wallow. Oh, I love that word, wallow.

Bill DeWees:
Oh yeah. And that's such a good point too. Yeah. No, and cause and I was just thinking that very same thing to wallow and it means you don't let it go.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm.

Bill DeWees:
And you have to, you know, and I, that was hard for me earlier on in my life. I, I had this very high expectation of myself that I would be perfect. Hmm. In all my, in all the way things that I did. And I began to realize as I began to operate in the real world, I wasn't that great, you know? And, and yes, I needed to make good on those things, but I also needed to let go of those things myself. Learn from them certainly, but then move on. And I think as you know, as performers, I, I think we can be really hard on ourselves. I mean, we tend to judge ourselves, I think pretty harshly, more so than probably anybody else would. And in wallowing is just so unproductive. And it's not honoring to the, to yourself or to the other person. You, you have to let it go and move on.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Absolute. So, uh, you know, obviously we're on the train of thought of not wanting to wallow, wanting to move on doing the next right thing. So if someone is looking for a place to start to build integrity, perhaps it's just occurred to them that they wanna invest in this area of their life and this conversation's really inspired them. Um, how can they begin to develop it? And, and where do you begin with that?

Bill DeWees:
Well, I think, let me go back to the word of consciousness. I think you have to be aware and awareness and a consciousness of, of how you interact with people and pay attention to the things that you say. And I'm gonna give you a very personal example and how to tread very lightly here, ‘cause that has to do with my marriage. And so Vicky and I have been, actually, we're getting ready to celebrate our 43rd wedding anniversary here

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Wow. Congratulations!

Bill DeWees:
in a couple of days. Well, thank you very much. It hasn't been without its ups and downs and plenty of drama and, you know, as all, all marriages are. But, um, my wife is a very, she's very, um, literal in all things. So, and, you know, so she comes from more of like an accounting type of, of mindset and background where, you know, everything that's said is kept track of she, you know, and, and has taken as literal, whereas I have more of a creative background. So I take a lot of creative license and what I say and, and my, I have an intent, but I may express it differently. And for years I couldn't, she would get so angry with me. She would say that I, that I lied to her and I, I couldn't figure out what in the world she was talking about. And, and it took a long time and a lot of work to figure out that the way I express myself, it's not always literal. I can be figurative and, and, or sometimes I'm not paying attention and I have intent, I'll say something, but I say a lot of things

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm-hmm,

Bill DeWees:
and then I won't onto thing that I said because it's one of a hundred things that I said, and then I forget about it. But she remembered every single one of those things. And, um, I say all that to say, just to be aware of, of maybe your communication style, your relationship style, and also the things that you say, because if you say you're going to do something, then you better do it, or it re it, it will create a deficit in your relationship with that person. And I have been so guilty of that so many times. Not even, not intentionally not meaning to. Now, I'm not saying I haven't done things intentionally that I shouldn't have done, but what I'm saying is there have been plenty of these times where it's just, I'm talking, you know, I'm just talking and, and I don't even remember I said it five minutes later,

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yes, yes

Bill DeWees:
But five weeks later she still remembers it and wonders, what am I gonna make good on that? You know, it's

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Like you gotta keep a journal, Bill, you gotta

Bill DeWees:
I know.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Write down what you say.

Bill DeWees:
Exactly. I need to have somebody follow me around and say, Bill, okay, here are the five things you promised, you know, in the past five minutes. But, but you do, but I, I have to make, I have to make a conscious effort to be aware of the things that I say and that, you know, if I say I'm going to do it, do it, then I better well do it,

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
That's right.

Bill DeWees:
Otherwise, that's not integrity.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Right. Because, you know, let your yes be yes and your no be no

Bill DeWees:
Yes.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
And just like, if you say you're gonna do something, then you do it and oh my gosh, am I ever kind of in a similar boat to you where I will say something and then something else will happen and, and a bunch of other things pile on top, and then all of a sudden it's like, what happened to that thing I said I was gonna do? At the time I said I was gonna do it for the person. I said I was gonna do it. And it's again, it's like overwhelm maybe, or it's just that we're, we're juggling too much. I, I know the, the idea of multitasking, um, you know, different views on it, but for me, it just simply doesn't work. I I can't do it. And, um, the more I realize that, the better off I am. It's so weird.

Bill DeWees:
I feel you right now.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah. So it, because you want to keep your word and, and that's your word, is your bond. And, um, I think that that's something that we all can aspire to do better. And that is a sign of having integrity, is that you do what you say you're going to do. Um, that what you say behind closed doors is what you say with an open door, you know?

Bill DeWees:
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Like, it's, it's all you wanna feel like this is a cohesive, this is who I am, it's part of, of who I am. And, and you can develop it too. And I'm glad that we were talking about that. So, um, I know we've talked a little about life and we're gonna talk a little bit more about voice over in particular now. Uh, but, but you know, it's so important that this notion of having integrity, it follows us in all areas of our life and work is no exception. So, um, you know, tell me, Bill, like how does having integrity as a voice talent or voice over professional impact the kinds of work that a talent will and will not do? Because there, there are a number of different jobs out there and, and not everyone will want to do everything that is, is there?

Bill DeWees:
Yeah

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
So, so how, how do they know what to do and not to do?

Bill DeWees:
Well, there's, there's two sides I think two sides to this. And I think, let me start this, this part of the conversation by saying, I think this is a generalization, but I think it holds true for many of us who are creatives. And that is we have a real desire to please other people. It's one of the reasons we do what we do. We like to get the positive. We like the affirmation. Um, let's just be honest, you know, I've done a long enough know that I can be honest about that. I, I like the positive feedback. I enjoy that, you know, it makes me happy when I can make a client happy. And if I get feedback even from peers, oh, that's, that's even better yet. But there's a, there's a, there's a dark side to that as well. Uh, and the dark side is that trying to please other people will cause us to make bad choices. And, and so one example of this would be, for instance, um, doing or not do or yeah, doing or not doing a project because of your fear of what other people will think about you doing. Uh, and I could give, I could give you an example. For instance, I was just recently hired to do a presidential campaign. Um, not, not for Trump or Biden. This, this has to do, this is a, uh, a lesser known candidate who's making a run at the GOP nomination who wants to run for president. His name is the Vivek Ramaswamy. He is, he's beginning to, you're singing more and more on the news, and I'm sure he'll be a part of the debates coming up. And he's a brilliant young, like 37 year old, uh, Harvard grad who created this multi million dollar tech company. He left that to pursue, to pursue politics. And, um, I was asked if I would do the, be the voice for his, you know, for his commercials, uh, which I, which I accepted. Uh, one of the things that, you know, he's will be the first Hindu that's actually running for, for presidential office in the United States. And I realized that could give some of my Christian or maybe Muslim friends reason for pause and think, ‘well, how, how could you dare,’ you know? But integrity tells me, uh, for, for me, it's doing what, what I feel, feel is right. He doesn't have to, I, we don't have to be the same for me in the beginning. This is me, whether he's the same religion or not, doesn't matter to me. What matters is, is there a general sense of respect for, for other human beings and a sense of wanting what's best for those people. Now, I don't know him personally, I don't need to, and I don't, my integrity doesn't, as a voice over talent for me, doesn't require me to have an interview with him to make sure he aligns with my thinking and his thinking. I don't think that's, I don't think that's what we're not called to agree with everybody. That's, I don't think that's the issue, but I could have not chosen to do that out of fear. I'm not doing this to say, you know, and look at my great example of integrity. I'm just saying it, this could happen with anything, you know, that, that we not do something because we're afraid of what somebody else might think.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Bill DeWees:
If somebody could say, well, you just, and I just recently recorded the, the open for Franklin Graham's Easter, uh, message on that. He broadcasts, I think, on, on the Fox Business Channel. And somebody could, somebody could say, ‘well, you do that, but you're advertising a, you know, a guy who, you know, who's a Hindu running for president?’ Yeah. Because I'm not cons, you know, all I'm concerned about is do we care about people? Are we willing to treat them with respect and with love? That's, that's, I hope that makes sense.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
No, absolutely. Yeah.

Bill DeWees:
I don't, you know, whether that puts me in a bad light with somebody, really, I really don't care that much. That does, that doesn't, you know, I'm at a point now in my life that that doesn't bother me. But as a, as a creative, as a voice over talent, I, I can see where it would be. Now there's the other side of the coin that says, well, what work am I going to refuse? You know, because of that. Well, and what was so interesting, you know, earlier on in my, my coaching, and this has happened consistently since, I can't believe the number of emails I get from people that say, you know, ‘well, should I do this? Or should I do this?’ Or ‘would you, you know, how

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm-hmm

Bill DeWees:
What happens if somebody asks me to do this?’

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yes.

Bill DeWees:
That's what happens. ‘What if somebody asks me to do this, and it's against my moral principles?'

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh.

Bill DeWees:
Well, you just, you know, just say, no, I don't wanna do that. I mean, it's in voice over. No, there's no, you're not obligated to do anything

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm-hmm.

Bill DeWees:
Um, but I guess at what, you know, I guess maybe the question then becomes, at what point? Well, I've only turned down two jobs in my, I've recorded over 10,000 jobs over the past 17 years. I've only turned down two, which, which tells you that I'll be the voice for pretty much anybody or anything. Again, unless I feel that, uh, going back to, I don't need to repeat the definition, but if I feel it's in violation of that, that would be a, you know, that would be a violation of my own integrity. One was, it was for a strip club, so if it, you, it's obviously objectifying a portion of our population. I'm not interested in that. So I just said, you know, thanks, but no thanks. The other was a book that I was hired to do record. Uh, it was a political book, which, you know, I would, by the way, I record political commercials for Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Libertarians. I, that's, that's of no consequence to me. I think every, you know, everybody has, uh, the right to have a voice. And I love the democratic system the way it works. And I'm glad to be a part of that. It's not a personal endorsement, it's me reading a message for somebody. That's the, you may see it differently, and that's fine. So this is not me judging other voice talent for what you do or don't do. I'm just saying, this is the way, you know, uh, that I processed this. But I, I was hired to read a book. So I said, great. I read, you know, and I saw the, uh, initial few pages, fine, okay. It really wasn't my cup of tea, but I thought, okay, fine. So they sent me the book. I began reading it, and within a few pages, I realized there is no way in good conscience could, could I read this. Because it was, it was a, a very, uh, far, it was a very more extremist, I will put it that I won't even say whether it's right or left, but it was very extremist. And that hateful, I mean, hateful, hateful, nasty, vile. I mean, the language was certainly vile, but even I'm not offended by language. What offends me is intent.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm-hmm.

Bill DeWees:
And the intent of this book was just, it was awful. Just, oh know, I felt terrible just even as I read it and recorded, I thought, ‘whoa, you can't do this.’ And so what made me feel bad was the fact that I had agreed to do it.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Oh, no.

Bill DeWees:
So now I have this kind of, there's a conundrum here where my, you know, my integrity says, well, I need to follow up on my commitments. But I realized then in good conscience, I could not record this book. So I, I contacted the author back or publisher and I said, I know, I agree, agreed to do this book, but I have to be honest with you, what I read was not reflective of what I saw.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm-hmm.

Bill DeWees:
In the sample that was given to me. And in good conscience, I can't do this. And they said, that's fine, thank you very much, and moved on.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Right.

Bill DeWees:
So those are just some personal examples. Um, you know, your, your mileage may vary in the kind of things that you get or that you, you know, but that's how I process that. I hope that's helpful.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah, no, it is helpful. And I, you know, everyone draws the line for different things in different places. Uh, for some it might be, ‘do I agree with the platform, you know, of this candidate?’ Am I,

Bill DeWees:
Yeah.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
You know, um, how does it, uh, connect or not connect with my foundational belief system, my worldview? And, you know, and, and it's, it's just interesting the various factors that will, people will take into account. And sometimes that's a deal breaker. It's like, ‘well, this person supports this issue and I, I can't,’ I, in good conscience, like you just said, you could not record something that you thought was vile or that was

Bill DeWees:
Yeah

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Offensive to you. And so I think for all talent listening, it doesn't matter where you've come from and, and what your background. If you feel that something is not for you, then don't be afraid of turning it away. Especially if you were only given a little tiny piece of it to make a judgment from. Um, ‘cause I know when people audition for work or you're, you're offered something, you're not necessarily given the whole shebang. Like you don't have the entire book in some cases.

Bill DeWees:
Yes.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Right. Or you don't, you don't know the context of which your voice might, um, be used in say, a video. You don't know what the visuals are. Well, I would never have narrated that if I knew it was on screen. You know, like there are a variety of things that can come into play and you could ask creative questions, especially if you feel you aren't equipped with, you know, the right kind of summary. Or you could say, well, you know, I know this video game, um, it's not yet been rated by E SR. Or Yeah, the ESRB, but, but if it were to be rated, what do you think it'll come out as? You know, like you can kind of hint it like, is this a, a T or, you know, teen thing or is this like E for Everyone? Um, there are ways to kind of get those answers if you're really concerned. And I would think that any creator or producer would be happy to give you that information because it's gonna let them know if you're a fit or not for what they're trying to do and

Bill DeWees:
Right.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
And you wanna know if you're a fit or not for what they're doing, ‘cause the last thing you wanna do is, is to compromise on your integrity. So, um, and I'm glad that you said that they were happy to just kind of let that go. They probably found someone else who would happily go ahead and narrate it, ‘cause there's always someone else. That is one thing I know that in business, if you're not willing to do something,

Bill DeWees:
That's right.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Someone else is.

Bill DeWees:
That’s right.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Don't worry about that client. They are not your concern if you don't wanna be part of their project. So, uh, you know, in business there are trade-offs. I think we, we've kind of talk about this from time to time, but, you know, if you want A, you can't have B you know, if you wanna grow, you can't just stay in one place. You have to leave the shire, as I was saying to some people, yes, yesterday, you gotta be Frodo, you gotta leave, you gotta take that ring and, and go, you know, do your mission outside of your, where you, uh, feel that you, you are comfy and cozy and, but people, if you are stopped in one place, you, you just simply don't grow like, you know, anything stagnant doesn't do anything other than stagnate. Um, and probably decay. So anyway. We'll, we'll leave that there. But you've got

Bill DeWees:
And can I throw in one other thought?

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah.

Bill DeWees:
That I had along, along and that that is this. I think you need to ask yourself why if you're turning something down, why are you turning it down?

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Right.

Bill DeWees:
Is it because you really, is it in conflict with what you think is right? Or is it because you're looking to please other people?

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm-hmm.

Bill DeWees:
So, you know, if you're gonna turn it down and say, I'm not gonna do this, then you go on to social media and say, ‘Hey, look what I just turned down because this violates my personal beliefs.’

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Oh gosh.

Bill DeWees:
It's just so other people say, ‘yeah, thatta boy, thatta girl,’ you know, and then your your tribe, your team can get together and pat each other on the back and say how right you are and how wrong they are. That's probably not integrity.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
No.

Bill DeWees:
So it needs to be to come from your standard and principle, not from somebody else's idea of what it should be.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah. And having integrity also means that you don't go out on the rooftop and speak about the things you chose not to do and, and basically lambaste those that you don't agree with, you know?

Bill DeWees:
Yes.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Like, it, it's not about, you know, virtue signalling about, ‘oh, well look what I didn't do,’ or ‘look what, look what I did.’ Or, you know, it could be either way. But if, if you were doing something because it's in your heart to do it, then you will have a different motivation, a different reason for why you've chosen to do that work, and that will come through. And then when you do celebrate doing it, you can just go out there and say ‘This is what I did, I’m so happy to share it with you.’ And you don't have any of those, um, kind of, uh, I don't wanna say regrets, but you don't have the hesitation of, ‘do I share that I did this or not,’ or like, ‘should I have really done this?’ or

Bill DeWees:
Right.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
You know? Yeah. But, um, as we were saying, like, you gotta find that place where you're growing in the work that you wanna do. Um, but, you know, sometimes having integrity, um, as we know it does come with a cost, there's a cost to pay. And, and some people say, you know, you have to count the cost before you go ahead and, um, you know, live out your, your worldview or, or whatever it might be, your values to uphold them. So Bill, as we're talking about this idea of paying a price or, or that sort of thing, um, what are the kind of costs that are out there, um, for holding to your values and how courageous must you be to pay them?

Bill DeWees:
Well, I have to be honest, from my perspective, I don't think you have to be all that courageous in voice over. I just don't, you know, I don't, I don't think the things that we deal with are, I mean, we may, may lose some money turning down a job or two. Like I said, I've turned down two things in the past 17 years. I mean, you know, it could be more for other people, but I'm, you know, the cost financially wasn't that much. Uh, could it be a, could it be a cost in terms of what other people, what they think or feel about me? Maybe again, does that really matter? No, I think the biggest cost though is disappointing yourself. I think when, you know, money can survive that, you know, we'll figure out something else, uh, what other people think. People are always gonna think something. So you can't control that. So we let that go. But if I disappoint myself in the sense that I did something that I know that I shouldn't have, shouldn't have done, then that starts to eat away at my soul. And that I can't, I can't live with that. And so I think that's, that's the greatest cost, is what is it going to do to me, you know, uh, the damage that it will do to, I mean, that affects every aspect of your life, your self esteem, the way you interact with other people. I mean, it can be soul crushing if you allow it, uh, to, you know, to take any kind of root in your, in your life because, and then, and once you, once you do something once and it's easier to do it the second time and the third time, and before long you're down a road that you wish you'd never gone down. So I think the biggest thing we stand to lose is when I say so I'm not meaning the grandiose forever. I just mean just, you know, our, our our sense of self and the way we operate within the world, it just will begin to erode that and begin to destroy that. And I think that's, that's the greatest cost that's paid, and that's why we have to be so careful to guard that.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah. You don't wanna lose yourself basically is what you're saying.

Bill DeWees:
No, yes, that’s exactly.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Something like just to gain and not even gain, whatever it is that you thought that you would, because the cost is so high to have done, you know, the work or, or to have made the decision.

Bill DeWees:
Right.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
So yes. Um, yeah. Okay. Well, I think that's, that's really interesting. So before we go, I know we got just another question here. Um, but you know, the importance of having courage, I think that goes hand in hand with integrity, because if you don't have courage, then it's really hard to stand up for what you believe in or to draw that line or to say, I'm sorry, I can't do this. Or, or of course I would love to do that, even if the rest of the crowd, you know, is, is not a fan of what you are about to do or say.

Bill DeWees:
Yeah.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Um, but you know, the word courage, it comes from the Latin word ‘Cor.’ So, and in French, there's like ‘coeur’ like your heart, right? And that it really comes from the Latin word core is heart. So when we have courage, and, and I know courage is often associated with great heroic deeds, like you think Brave Heart, you think like, you know, um, Richard the Lionheart, like even Lionheart, right? Like Coeur de Lion, like, it, it sounds like there's so much richness in the idea of courage, but, but courage really, you know, taking small steps every day with integrity. And it takes courage to do that. Even in this, the seemingly, you know, insignificant things that you might

Bill DeWees:
Yes

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
go through or decisions, but every little tiny thing leads to bigger things. And, and, you know, if you can't be trusted with little, then how can you be trusted with a lot, and if you're trusted with little and you do good, then you'll get more. But it, it just seems to me like we, we often discount the role that having courage plays, um, and, and just everyday life, not just the big decisions. Like, do I do this presidential campaign or not? Like that's a big decision, or do I marry this person or do I buy this house? Or, um, you know, um, should I, whatever it might be, move across the country, who knows? But the small things make your bed every day, you know, like little things like this.

Bill DeWees:
Oh no, I feel like I'm listening to a mother now.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Oh no. Well, I, I know I'm not you know, Mrs. DeWees, your mom, but, but I am a mom, got four kids, so, but it, and I, I don't make my bed every day. I do try, I know it's important, but what, what I'm trying to think of here is like, how can we in small ways muster that courage and have bravery so that we can actually in a situation, be a big or small, um, live with integrity, um, to be authentic to oneself. Like what are, what are the little habits, little things that we can do everyday to strengthen that muscle?

Bill DeWees:
I think that courage comes from a strong sense of self, and I think it takes a while to develop that. I think, you know, in our earlier years, in our formative years, we're still trying to discover who we are, what we're about, even what we believe, what's important to us. But as those things begin to gel, and, and you really, you hit on Stephanie, you said little things, and I think little things are right. I think once you have that awareness, you, you know, having the awareness that, okay, I need to act in line with what I think and believe. And the thing about courage, I don't think typically just, it doesn't come out of nowhere. It comes out of a sense of knowing, I think, what's right and what you should be doing. And then secondly, having the willingness to take that small step and know that it may cost you something like we just talked about earlier. Um, because it's, it's, it is a muscle that you grow and we are all presented with opportunities. You know, me more so in my regular life or even in my business life in, in dealing with clients than it isn't in the jobs that I take, because most of my stuff is pretty, I mean, right before we talked, I just read like a little introductory thing for Windows 11, Microsoft Windows 11, this guy, there's not a whole lot to be concerned about. Well, the most of the, you know, most of the voice over work out there. I mean, there's other stuff, but you know what I'm saying? But there's plenty of opportunities in my, in my daily relationships to exercise those things and to do things even when it, uh, may cost me something or keeps me from getting something, you know, that I want. And I really don't know how, I mean, I think it's really what you just said. It's, it's taking those little opportunities and just deciding that regardless, I'm just going to do it. And then once you realize that the world doesn't fall apart around you, and that you actually feel better as a result and feel stronger as a result of doing that, you'll be better prepared the next time that opportunity comes. And then the muscle gets stronger and it gets stronger. But I, but I think regardless of how often you do it or how strong you get, you always have to be on your game. I think you always have to have that awareness and make sure that as best you can, um, you're operating with integrity and that when you're not, you have the humility to go back and to admit it. Otherwise you lose that muscle. The muscle starts to atrophy at that point.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Wow, everybody go to the gym of integrity, you need to start working this muscle,

Bill DeWees:
The gym of integrity, I like that. Yes, absolutely.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
It's like the little things, the little things and, and everybody, um, out there who listens, um, to Vox talk and participates in conversations on social media about the show, be it on LinkedIn, Twitter, wherever you're doing that, um, you know, I wanna challenge you like find ways to support each other in honing that muscle to grow it, because, um, we're all in this together. And VO is such a great community and, and you can have conversations about this little support, accountability groups. I know that there's a number of you who do this just in general and, and that's great. Um, but I think that, you know, if, if you can work on this on your own, and certainly if you have questions, feel free to follow up. Use the hashtag Vox Talk or whatever, or email me directly, stephanie (at) voices.com. Be happy to, to look into more of this for how you can be a more faithful voice talent to your own values and, and what it is that, that, uh, you would like to do with your career. Because what you do at the end of the day is your decision. Such a great conversation. It's always hard to leave it where it is Bill with you, because it's just always something more to talk about. But, but, thank you.

Bill DeWees:
Well, I'm always willing to talk whenever you want to, Stephanie, it's always a pleasure.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Aw, thank you Bill for joining us. And that's the way we saw the world through the lens of voice over this week. Thank you so much for listening. Every conversation we have on Vox Talk is so much fun. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Bill DeWees. If you wanna learn more about Bill, you can go to billdeweeslive.com. There's a bunch of cool stuff you can discover there. Um, I really, really hope that what we talked about today has inspired you to really think about what it is that, that you are working on as a voice talent, you know, why you believe the things that you do, and how you live those out in the real world because they do affect you and the decisions you make, the auditions you do, and the jobs that you take. So for Voices, I'm Stephanie Ciccarelli, our producer for Vox Talk is Geoff Bremner. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next week.